John Francis Flynn: 'The only rule I have for myself is to be honest and respectful of the source material'
An interview with the Dublin singer as he releases second album Look Over the Wall, See the Sky
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This week is an interview with John Francis Flynn (picture above by Steve Gullick), the Dublin singer who has just released his second album, Look Over the Wall, See the Sky (buy the album on Bandcamp). We had a great chat in Fairview Park on Thursday, the day before the record came out. I’m going to put it out on the TPOE podcast as well in the coming weeks if you’d like to listen to the chat - there was a bit of wind, and a tractor doing some work nearby; we’ll call it ambient sound - but I thought people might be interested in hearing some of John’s ideas around the songs as they sink into the album this weekend. So our 35-minute chat is below, slightly edited for length and clarity. John is doing some UK instores and an Irish tour in the coming weeks - dates here.
John Francis Flynn Irish tour dates:
December 1: Set Theatre, Kilkenny
December 2: Vicar Street, Dublin
December 8: Roisin Dubh, Galway
December 9: Live at St Luke’s, Cork
December 10: De Barras, Clonakilty
December 14: Dolan’s Warehouse, Limerick
We had a nice little walk around slightly north Dublin there, near enough to where you grew up. Your new album is not a concept album, but it is about Dublin. Is that one of the ideas that you had at the outset?
Yeah, it's not really a theme that I knew I was exploring until halfway through the process of putting the songs together. It emerged then that it was very much an album about Dublin, that's how I think about it anyway. Yeah.
What was the initial idea? Was it you actually thinking what you wanted to do for a second album, or was it just this collection of songs, you thought they all worked together?
It happened more so that like, I had an idea for one song. And I was like, 'alright', or I had separate ideas for a number of songs. We went to Leitrim to jam, myself and Brendan (Jenkinson), Ross (Chaney), Ultan (O'Brien) came along for a couple of days as well. I think we came away with one song. And that was the start of it. I didn't go into the studio with eight songs and know that like, 'Oh, yeah, these songs will all work together. And I'll just record them in two weeks, and that'll be the album.' It was a year-long process; 'I have an idea for this song, I have an idea for that song.' And we recorded as many songs as we could in that time, or as many songs as I had ideas for. I fit them together, then at the end, some of them weren't working, some of them were working. I think as I put them together, the theme of the album became clear. And then also, ‘How do we finish off this album? This particular song's not working' It was a journey, as opposed to like, 'I have these songs, I want to record them.'
What did it start with? What was the first song that you had?
'Kitty' was the first one. We recorded that in Leitrim. Myself and Brandon were actually working on another project - recording music for a film; I'm not sure if it's even going to be used in the film - but we did come away with loads of ideas. He started playing the clarinet through a load of pedals during this stint, and I was like, 'I have a song that I want some sort of a drone for. I think this is the perfect music, the perfect sound for it.' And it worked. So we took something from a different project and made it work for this one. That's actually how a number of things happened with this album. I was working on just getting inspired by working on other things and being like, 'Wait a sec, that really works with what I'm thinking over here,' you know? Kinda leftovers from other projects get taken in.
In terms of Dublin on the album, is it an angry view? Are you looking at it through angry eyes, mournful eyes, or hopeful eyes? That idea of Dublin won't be defeated? I know that the Cobblestone is one of the ideas underpinning the album as well. You were very vocal in the protests against the developments that were planned for there. Do you think it's an angry album?
I would see it as a hopeful album. So I came to a lot of these songs around the time of that. It was only afterwards I was thinking about, like, 'When did I start, when did I learn these songs? When was I listening to these songs? When was I researching these songs, when did I come to them? And why do I connect with them?' It's actually because it was around that time when there was a huge energy around the Dublin is Dying movement that we started around the Cobblestone that brought in a lot of other movements to protect the city and protect our homes; protect our communities. That energy was intense and amazing. You start out thinking like, 'Oh, how are we going to fight off these property developers? What can we do?' And it was just so overwhelmingly powerful that our little movement, or the momentum it gained, that it's actually quite a hopeful feeling. Like the hope that even though there's a huge amount of struggle, there's hope and community and unity and bonding when ya come together and fight back. And I think that the album was a lot about that. Like the title is Look Over the Wall, See the Sky; I think there's a lot of hope in that. That's how I would see it anyway.
You had a great feature with the Quietus, they seem to really love you.
Yeah, yeah. I love the Quietus as well, so it was such a nice experience to talk to John Doran.
There's loads of quotes that I could have picked out that I wanted to ask you about. One of them was, you said, 'When I connect to a song, I develop a personal idea of what it's about. And this in turn makes me feel a certain way. And the arrangement then comes out of how I can best represent those feelings, I feel that it's respectful of the source material.' Tell me about how you connect to a song.
You can connect with a song in multiple ways, as a listener, as a singer. And I would say that, as a singer, even if you connect with the song, even if you really love a song, if you hear someone else singing the song and you're like, 'I would really love to sing that song,' there's so many times when I've gone to a song, and I've sang it, and I was like, 'I'm gonna try my best.' And it's just not right, it's not fitting, it's not really resonating with me the same way as when I listened to it. And I have to just accept that that song is best left sang by another person; that's someone else's. Someone else that does a better job of that than me, and I can still appreciate that song, I can still love that song. And then there's other songs that when I sing them, and it's hard to explain it, but you kind of meet the song and you just resonate with it. It comes out and it's very honest, and it makes you feel something when you sing it. Yourself and the song are intermingling and there's a certain - I dunno, you have to be honest with that. And if you're not being honest with that, then maybe it doesn't come out properly. But if you do really meet a song, and resonate with it, I think you will just naturally be honest with it. And then I suppose you'll have your own meaning [for] the song, whatever meaning it has for you will come out then, in that honesty. And then in terms of arranging songs, I suppose that honesty and emotion from that guide where the song can go. And I think you can frame a song however you like once it represents the essence of it. And to really understand the essence of it, you just have to be very honest, I think.
Can you tell like when acts aren't being honest, or is it just a personal thing?
I think so. It is very much a personal thing, but I do think that a lot of traditional singers think like that. I would say that a lot of really, really good traditional singers, people who really know what they're doing, people who I look up to, I'd imagine - I haven't had too many conversations about this - but I do think that probably that's how most people would think. I don't have anything against anyone singing any song they want to - sing whatever song you want to - but certainly some people sing with such honesty and emotion with a song that, like, I couldn't reach with certain songs, but I can recognise that honesty in how I perform other songs. I'm not going around being like, 'I don't know if that person is honest or not.' Or 'I don't know if that person's forcing things.' But sometimes you actually can. Actually a prime example is when you do gigs where you have to sing songs. I've done gigs back when - I tried to not do them - like, the touristy gigs. When you're trying to make a few quid in Dublin, as a musician, you end up having to do these gigs. And some people really enjoy that. It wasn't for me. It's a job, but you have to sing songs that you don't necessarily want to sing. And I knew myself, I was like, 'I'm being so dishonest here. This is not fun for me. I don't feel artistic. It's diminishing my soul almost.' You can tell when people are just going through the... motions. Again, nothing against that, but in terms of being fulfilled as a singer, being fulfilled as an artist, or as an interpreter of traditional songs, or as just a singer of traditional songs, that is soul-destroying for me. And then also, there's other people who do really resonate with that and do a really, really good job of it and are able to do it. And I can listen to that and appreciate that as well.
Are those touristy gigs where 'Dirty Old Town', the closer of the album, came from? Were you doing a version of that? I presume that you weren't doing this version of it. But that seems like a song that you almost have to do at those gigs, is it?
It's one of those songs that's done to death. And it's done to death in a particular way; in the way that the Dubliners did it and the way that the Pogues did it. They're two excellent versions of that song. I love those versions. But they became so popular, popularised the song in that style of singing or that kind of raucous ballad, pumping it out kinda song style, that it became this pub classic. And it's brilliant, but it is done to death. You walk through Temple Bar and you'll hear it 10 times. And there's nothing wrong with that, again, but I really loved the song and I really wanted to take it back to almost the original, where Ewan MacColl, who wrote the song, sang it in a very sombre way. It was a very emotional, sombre and soft, tender song... Way before - and actually this is probably the starting point of the album, even though we didn't start with it - it was an idea in my head. I was like, 'I really want to do ‘Dirty Old Town'‘, but I wanted to turn it on its head, do a really common song but just completely change the tone of it.
Was Lankum a bit of an inspiration in terms of that? Like their version of 'The Wild Rover' again, I see that as almost unrecognisable from what I would associate 'The Wild Rover' as. Were you thinking about that in terms of 'Dirty Old Town'?
No, no, I wasn't, but it is a similar thing. We come from the same scene. We grew up playing - when I was in my early 20s [this was] the scene I was getting into - and we were all hanging out. So we have similar sensibilities in terms of how we sing songs. I'm very influenced by the scene in general and certainly by Lankum, but everyone I play with. But I wasn't trying to do a popular song. I guess Lankum's song actually, 'The Wild Rover' was more inspired (with the way I'm thinking now) probably by the actual melody of the song, it's completely different. They obviously found this very interesting, alternate version of 'The Wild Rover' and were like, 'Jesus, this is dark, this really suits'. For me, that melody really suits Lankum. And they did a fucking amazing job of it and really turned it on its head. But it is a completely different version of the song, definitely a completely different melody. Whereas 'Dirty Old Town' is the exact same melody, I'm just slowing it down and getting more to grips with the - basically the big influence actually was Ewan MacColl himself.
You do another couple of Ewan MacCall songs on the album as well.
'Lag Song' is a Ewan MacColl song. That was supposed to go on the last album, but it wouldn't fit. I just couldn't make it fit. Even though I love it. It's one of my favorite songs to sing. So it had to go on this album. And then it almost didn't go on this album. I was like, 'It just has to, like'. I had to drop another song. Well, actually, I put it up to a vote between a few people and 'The Lag Song' won in the end.
You also told the Quietus that the songs all challenge a perspective of what Ireland is, or is perceived to be. What do you mean by that? Could you expand on that?
A theme that emerged from the album, about it being a Dublin album, it's also an Irish album, it's about identity. I started thinking about how people view Irish people. I don't really like the whole, I dunno, the Disneyland version of what Ireland is - like leprechauns and rainbows and crocks of gold, all this kind of craic. We're sold around the world as these like, 'Oh, shur, everything's grand. And Ireland is such a lovely place.' Whereas actually, this is a real fucking place, and it's a very hard place to live in. It's the highest rent in Europe, we're getting priced out of our homes. It's a real problem. A good few of my friends at the moment are facing eviction cos landlords are selling their houses and stuff, and they have nowhere to go. They have to go home with their mas. That's the only option. Because they can't find a house that they can afford to rent. So there's that whole perception of what Ireland is sold as and people come over to Ireland tourists come over to Ireland and watch us playing Irish music in these sessions in Temple Bar, and they're thinking, 'Wow isn't this amazing!' And actually, yeah, it is amazing, but like, you have a really warped view of what this is. And people start dying - the whole album cover, with the creme de menthe - people dye entire rivers green on Paddy's Day! I went over to Zambia even and they were dying pints; pints in Zambia are green on Paddy's Day! I was like, 'This is outrageous'. It's everywhere! [The album cover] is tongue in cheek, poking fun at - 'why don't you have a creme de menthe instead?' This is the essence of Ireland, this little green glass. Anyway, I can't stand how we're sold around the world, especially Irish music. I've gone on tour in America, and it's very hard to get away from... the Paddywhackery element of things. People just want you to be a certain thing. Because they're sold a certain thing. And you're like, 'No, I'm not that.' And then there's actually loads of Irish Americans in America and England who really engage, who really know what it is to be Irish and really know what it is to be Irish abroad and really engage with Irish culture and understand that. And also hate that paddywhackery element as well. It's a bit of a nightmare, that end of things... The album challenges that: What it is to be Irish. And even if that's just through sonically, how do you frame an Irish song? It talks about the struggles in Dublin or what it is to be from Dublin, what it is to be Irish, maybe in an abstract way, but that's how I think about it.
Did you get to try the creme de menthe that's on the cover?
Course I did (laughs).
How many did you make before you settled on the right-looking one?
We had, four or five different glasses. Therese Rafter and Aisling Redmond went out on their own and took the shots. I came out for a couple of hours one of the days and they had a big bottle of creme de menthe and they were pouring it into different glasses. Creme de menthe is delicious if you have ice, but if you have no ice, it's too syrupy. You need to have it on ice. But it is absolutely fantastic.
Tell me about 'The Zoological Gardens', the opening track on the album. There's a sense of dread [that creeps in]. I guess that's Brendan, is it, with the tape loops? That comes in in the first track and you hear it more times throughout the album.
Yeah. So that is the track that tied the whole thing together. We had all of the rest of the tracks recorded and I was like, 'How do you line these up?' I could see the themes and I could see how there's a few different ways it could go, but it needs something else. Myself and Brendon were working on a different project, The Bohemian Way, with Bohemian Football Club. And we were asked to record a couple of different songs. I chose to record 'The Zoological Gardens'.I was over at his house and as soon as we had recorded it, Brendon was messing with these kind of - I don't know exactly what he was doing, like, Brendon's a bit of a wizard - but he was doing all this mad shit with feedback loops and... to be honest, I'm not even gonna try and explain it, I don't know what he was doing. But it's all this mad feedback stuff. And it was really, really cool. I was singing over that basically. After we recorded, we listened back and we're like, 'This is it!' Both of us, myself and Brendon, we're like, this is the last piece of the puzzle. So we used it on the Bohemian Way as well but it's a slightly different version. So basically the whole buzz is that, at the start. It's just unaccompanied singing for the first verse. And you're set in Dublin. You're there. It's very much a Dublin trad song. You're in Dublin. This is a trad album, you're in Dublin. And then seeps in the weird, wonky electronics. I guess at that point hopefully, you're like 'Oh, this could go anywhere from here.' You're in Dublin but it's getting wonky.
'Mole in the Ground' is the second song. It's just an unbelievable tune. Every time I listen to it, it's like I find something else to discover. Was it an easy song to figure out? I know the story behind it: It's this old Appalachian folk song. And I saw you put up a clip of you doing it during lockdown. And it sounds kind of there. Did it take ages to figure out like, what we hear on the album, to get to that point?
Yeah, it did. I was working on it over lockdown. I was messing around with it over lockdown; I wasn't working on it in any particularly serious way. until much further on than that. But I did come up with this like guitar fingerpicking thing. I had a Casio and I had the drum machine on the Casio. I was just playing along to that. I was like, 'D'ya know, what I really, really like this buzz.' So I wanted a drum machine and kind of a dodgy synth and the guitar thing. But the melody of the song, it sounds like a children's song, it's a bit like 'Weela Walya', it's a very dark song... 'I don't like the railroad man, I don't like the railroad man, I don't like the railroad man, the railroad man he'll kill ya when he can, he'll drink up your blood like wine.’ That's really vicious, that line, this is really dark. I really liked the contrast of happy melodies and - it's weird, like, and very dark stuff. But for this, I was like, 'I actually want to get to grips with just the lyrics. I want them to come out.' So I just kind of speak it or chant it on one note or two notes, pretty low. I knew I wanted to do that for ages, but I didn't know how to frame it. I was trying my best with the guitar arrangements and the drum machine and then I brought it to the lads, we jammed it out, and we had a few different versions of it. It wasn't until maybe a year after we jammed it first that it came together in one of the rehearsal studios that we were working in. Caimin (Gilmore) did this bass line. And I was like, 'That really works, that really works.' That kind of tied it together with - Ross lashed down a drum beat. Then it was done, like. Brendan then lashed, basically, my vocals and then every verse, my vocals would obviously sing the song or chant the song and then Brendon would take over with a guitar solo. And that was it. It came together very quickly. But after years of me trying things. I knew where I wanted it to go but we were missing something. I think it was Caimin's bass line that really tied it together.
It's interesting seeing the features and reviews about you and them talking about this song and the new genres that they're talking about you in; kind of a trad sense but it's almost like 'he's bringing it into this new world'. Is that something that you're thinking about? Are you thinking about other genres?
I wouldn't think necessarily in other genres. I don't like thinking in those terms and words, or whatever, but I just don't like - I don't put any boundaries up for myself in terms of what I can do. The only rule I have for myself is to be honest and respectful of the source material. And once you do that, then I can frame it however I like.
I think I read that you don't change the lyrics to the songs. You sing the original versions.
I wouldn't go out of my way to. What I do do is I could get multiple versions of a song and mash them together. Which is what I did with 'Zoological Gardens' That's Ronnie Drew's version mixed with Brendon Behan's version. And then, 'Mole in the Ground', I think that's a mix of the Bascom Lamar version... 'If I was a mole, I'd tear that mountain down' - that bit is from the Jackson C Frank version. So I don't really change lyrics to the songs, but I might mix them up a bit with some different versions.
We're not gonna be able to talk about all of the songs on the album, but 'Within a Mile of Dublin' really stands out to me. Was that a really fun one to make? It sounds like you're all just in the room jamming together. And then this big chaotic outro happens.
Yeah, that was really, really fun... I think we added layers of distortion. But I think we pretty much played it live. Yeah, we did play it live because it was hard to get the fiddle and the whistle to seep out - it's supposed to seep out and the drone takes over. Because you get some of the fiddle in another person's mic, I think it was harder to completely get rid of it. Brendon did it in the end. Anyway, it was a big piece. It was a fun concept for a track, 'Within a Mile of Dublin' and as you go through the tune, it just starts breaking down and it just turns to this noise. And then Kaija (Kennedy) coming in with the 'within a mile of Dublin' (line) and it turns into this kind of weird industrial dance track or something like that. Kind of weird. It was really, really fun making it and it was a bit of a journey. It definitely took a while beyond just - it wasn't just performed fully live. Some of it was performed live and then there was a lot of work afterwards.
Does this album feel like it's opened doors for you just creatively, in terms of how you view songs? Like there are no rules, no limits? Like, have you thought about what's next? Do you know what's coming say for album number three, that like you don't want to have any limitations on you?
I think the first album actually opened the door for me really, because I was taking risks with the first album because it was my first album. I was finding my feet. I was finding my voice. And I had ideas and I was like, 'Oh, are these good? I don't know.' And it was over lockdown as well so I was sitting on recorded stuff for months and months and months on end. So after listening to it a thousand times, you're like, 'Oh God!' And then the album went down well, and I was like, 'Oh, people like this.' I guess I needed that reassurance even though I was pretty sure I liked it. I was still - you know, it was my first thing. Anyway, that gave me confidence going into the second album. And now, I don't really need people - well, I do, I want people to buy the album of course - but I like it. This is the first time I've been like, 'Yeah, I actually really like this. I like this album.' I set out to do something, I collaborated with really good musicians and friends and we formed something, we set out to do something and we're all very proud of what it is that we made. And I think I'll go into the next album with a similar confidence in terms of vision, and I hope that people like it for sure. But most importantly is that I like it and the lads who are on the album like it as well.